photo by cole during ‘the theater is a blank page’
a collaboration by Ann Hamilton and Ann Bogart with SITI Company at The Wexner Center for the Arts.
…
Your foot in my mouth, or mine in yours?
I had the pleasure of interviewing Claire Porter on April 3, 2015 for coursework with Dr. Candace Feck. Below is an excerpt. Over a cup and a beer and a couple of hours on skype, I asked Claire questions on the subject of “words”.
“Truth” became “True” … and I want to do it again.
NG What is the work that words do?
CP They are a representation of something . they are not the thing itself but a representation of something, so if I said cup (she holds up a cup)… It’s not the cup, but you know I’m talking about, this. You don’t know what’s inside the cup. Because I didn’t tell you the word for it and you can’t taste it over there, but I can say it’s tea… and you can believe me… or not.
NG Do you think that words make things more true?
CP I think words generate something, true or not they can generate an idea. So truth? If it’s useful then it’s probably true. Like cup is useful because you get this (holds up cup). you get it. in your head. You understand it. So, we could say that’s true word for cup. Cup! True word for that is cup. Gets more complicated when we get into abstraction…
CP even though cup is an abstracted thought. But it’s not an idea… uhm. I suppose it is an idea, represents a thing. Doesn’t represent an idea. .. well, wait a minute … well I have to think about that.
NG Are thoughts made of words?
CP I think so. Feelings are feelings. Thoughts are thoughts. Body sensations are body sensations. And, we, merge it all together. Our mind is our body making up words.
NG Is movement a thought?
CP Uhm, movement, is a behavior and movement is an action…
CP Well I guess we have to define thought.
NG Okay! Go ahead.
CP (Laughter) Go ahead. (Indecipherable… she reaches for a dictionary, and sometime later) … No, movement is movement. . . You can plan to move, I suppose planning to move is a thought. The sensation of moving (she begins to repetitively flip her fingers up dictionary pages) movement, nerve, the sensation you go to, is in your mind. So for people who suffer from Parkinson’s say, there’s something in their brains that’s not connecting, so they have trouble moving. So in that way its in our mind. And we can think of it as a thought. (flips pages) Maybe electric, electricity, or synapses and (pages) No. I don’t think it’s thought. (pages. Pages.)
NG How many languages do you speak?
C One. English.
N And, body language, right?
C Well, I don’t speak it, so.
N What do you do with it?
C I move it.
N You move, you move language.
C Well body language.
N Body language.
C Well I guess we read body language. We read one another’s body language. Right?
N Yes.
C …. listening is language in action so we hear one another speak, we listen to the other speak and we recreate it. So we are languaging as the other languages and there we connect. I think it’s amazing. That we understand each other. Isn’t it kinda wild?
N Yes. I often wonder if we actually do understand each other.
C Well, we get things done.
N Yes (laughing), we do!
C So, in some capacity we understand each other. But not profoundly, I mean we’re on our own. Right? You can never really get in my head or me in your head, in your mind. It’s all proximate. Kinda. So we’re always, we’re alone.
N Do you talk to yourself?
C Well, so that assumes that there’s a self. And that’s a big assumption. So if you assume there’s no self than you can’t talk to yourself, but you can think.
N And thinking is not talking to yourself?
C Uh, well. I guess talking to yourself is kind of the first thing before you start thinking. It’s kind of the rudimentary thinking. It suggests thinking, but it’s not thinking.
N Explain that a little more.
C Well, um, if you, do something called talk to yourself, it suggests that you have generated a self to talk to. Which means you’re doing some sort of generating-thinking. Thinking which is generating. Its something in your mind. So it’s kind of the rudimentary work of thinking. But what’s interesting I think is if you take out the self, and what’s left is some thoughts – thoughts, that have you working on something creative or problem solving or a deliberation some way about something. So that seems like a step away from – it’s different than talking to yourself, and as a creator, as you are, you get involved in the work of what you’re doing whether it’s dancing or writing this paper that you’re writing or making a dance or writing a text for a dance, you get involved in that so the self gets… it’s not involved, I mean you’re doing it but there’s no idea – self idea- involved. Its all this wordplay and paragraph making and creating.
N So it sounds like you, well I’m hearing that you’re saying, if you are doing something, when you are doing something like making, it is not a reference to a self.
C Right, that’s what I’m saying. I suppose you could. It could be about the self – unless it’s about the self. Usually its about something else. It’s about writing a paper, about words, the self isn’t in there, its about the words.
N Yeah, but the self is what makes the word have a meaning, isn’t it?
C The self is a fiction! The self is made-up. You, you’re some kind of system of body, mind , synapses. Even the mind is a concept, this brain doing it’s thing and somehow you write. Pretty amazing. And you don’t need a self to do that.
N What are your thoughts on this formula I wrote: Repetition + Adaptation = Truth
C And is truth kind of uh, truth is a concept?
N Yeah, truth is like, ya know. I sometimes interchange it with reality, because I think it’s personal.
C Uh huh.
N I think there are certainly universal truths, this is what catches me up, because one of my other questions for you is ‘if we change our words depending on who’s in the room, does truth change depending on who’s in the room?’
C Well if you think of truth as changeable,
N Mm hmm, I think it’s like balance, it’s not a point of arrive, it’s a doing, it’s an action.
C That’s interesting, that’s interesting. Uhm, uh, once you said universal truth, that sounds like plato, playtoh, he believed in universal truth.
N Being what , what was it?
C Uh, that there existed these forms that we aspire to that live in some kind of metaphysical space that was truth. And now a days, uh, we uh, the metaphysicians, metaphysicists and philosophers see truth as uh, dependent. Dependent on uh, situation. Which fits in with your repetition and adaptation idea.
N But I do feel like truth to me , when I get universal with it, god , it’s god, or 100s of gods , it’s that sort of being state, you know that universal energetic thing, which does not change, that’s truth. And I think,
C But that’s an idea.
N Right.
C We don’t know that for sure.
NG Mmm but we come from it. I mean it is . It is.
C So, Repetition + Adaptation? I think it uh, leads to habit
N Mm hmm.
C Which starts to seem like truth. But it is habit and changeable. I call it habit.
N So in your opinion, truth is not changeable.
C Truth is changeable depending on the situation. (Pause) So although you could say, I feel sad. That could be true. I guess, I like the word true better than truth. That could be true. Truth seems so closed. Where if something is true, it seems more open. Which I like better.
N Hmm.
C So repetition and adapation is, = true, is , I like better. (Pages) True: Reliable; certain in accordance with fact that agrees with reality; not false. Truth: (Page) the quality or state of being true; that which is true. Guess it’s the same thing. Truth suggests conformity with the facts or with reality even as an idealized abstraction or an application to statements, ideas, acts, etcetera…
C Repetition + Adaptation? I think it, leads to habit.
N Mm hmm.
C Which starts to seem like truth. But it is habit and changeable. I call it habit.
N So in your opinion, truth is not changeable.
C Truth is changeable depending on the situation. (Pause) So although you could say, I feel sad. That could be true. I guess I like the word true better than truth. That could be true. Truth seems so closed. Where if something is true, it seems more open. Which I like better. So repetition and adapation is, true. I like that better. (Pages) ‘True. Reliable, certain in accordance with fact that agrees with reality, not false. Truth. (Page) the quality or state of being true, that which is true.’ Guess it’s the same thing. Truth suggests conformity with the facts or with reality even as an idealized abstraction or an application to statements, ideas, acts, etcetera. It’s the same, it’s the same, but I happen to like true better than truth in this context because it seems more, what? More… adaptable.
N What do you think writing about our work, or writing as part of making, does to the work?
C Well I know I have to work on something tonight. I have to rehearse tonight. And tomorrow and Sunday and Monday, I’m working on a new piece. And writing kind of, lets me go for a ride and hopefully find something I want to investigate. Or spend time with and hone. So, for me writing , not just thinking I mean, the actual putting it on paper , writing it or typing it too, helps me go for a ride with it, and to what i’m gonna think next. So it’s very freeing and shaping at the same time. (Laughter).
N Claire Porter you have… Shit! (her favorite curse word) Fuck ! (mine)
C Fuckin A. Yeah. I have to write something. I’m workin’ on Big and Small.
(excerpted from interview 4.3.2015)
Words “are not the thing itself, but a representation of something” . (CP)
Action and intention are what I’m learning about… words will always fall short.
Cole G 